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28 Comments.

1. No, not the boogeyman that is the 6th Street Marketplace!!! At least wait until your second paragraph before you work that little bit of fearmongering into your post.

   NEWSFLASH: Richmond isn’t the same town is was in the era of the 6th Street days. Much has changed. And, unfortunately, from the looks of it, many of the people around here have not changed.

   FanGuy @ February 3rd, 2009 at 4:23 pm

2. Get a life dude. BASEBALL IN THE BOTTOM!!!
   Richmond shall progress…………

   jarry jared @ February 3rd, 2009 at 4:37 pm

3. For the people who believe they are going to benefit from the baseball stadium project — real estate wheeler-dealers, owners of failing restaurants and shops in Shockoe Bottom, etc. — I hear your pleas. But I am not persuaded that regular baseball fans will come to that stadium in sufficient numbers to make the scheme fly.

   My sense of it is that the energetic boosters for this thing think they can create so many new fans that they won’t need the Little Leaguers, church groups, family/neighborhood groups, old men who used to play baseball, etc., that used to go to games at The Diamond.

   To me such thinking is pure folly. But I have no trouble understanding why some hired gun flacks for this business are being so relentless in their over-the-top support.

   FTRea @ February 3rd, 2009 at 7:17 pm

4. I work downtown and would easily attend 100% more games when I can get off work and just walk down the street and meet my buddies. There is a much larger base of people to draw from sitting in downtown everyday (than near the blvd). You don’t have to coax people in from the counties, they are already there, and won’t mind hanging out another couple of hours for a game….

   Ry @ February 3rd, 2009 at 8:32 pm

5. I feel like I’ve had to repeat myself on about 5 different comment sections regarding minor league baseball and its fanbase. One more time!

   I am not so naive that I think this project will create brand new baseball fans and turn them into full-season ticket holders. I would guess that the average minor league baseball attendee goes to

   Anna @ February 3rd, 2009 at 9:33 pm

6. Indeed, I think the argument of drawing “regular baseball fans” is pointless. If they are, in fact, hardcore fans, than they should logically follow the stadium to wherever it may land.

   The benefit to the Shockoe location – beyond filling in the downtown core – is that it draws in a bunch of NON-regular baseball fans by virtue of its sheer proximity to offices and apartments.

   I couldn’t care less about the Braves, both because they weren’t a particularly thrilling team and because their stadium was a dump.

   I also couldn’t care less about the Colorado Rockies, but I had somehow I still had a great time watching them when I was out in Denver. Perhaps that’s because the ballpark was surrounded by bars, restaurants, and quick, free public transit.

   A stadium on Boulevard would be a car-dependent monstrosity that may as well be in Chesterfield or Short Pump. Why bother living in a city if we’re going to plan like the suburbs?

   Omelette @ February 3rd, 2009 at 11:57 pm

7. Omelette,

   Your comments tell me you know very little about baseball, as a game or a business.

   And, when you come here to trot out your talking points, hey, you are throwing slogans at the wrong old baseball fan.

   You see, I do know something about who has been going to baseball games in Richmond over the years.

   Moreover, “logic” isn’t going to compel some of them to go to Shockoe Bottom at night. Whether they are from the suburbs, or elsewhere, won’t matter so much if they stay home and watch a baseball game on television.

   FTRea @ February 4th, 2009 at 12:56 am

8. FTRea, what I think is folly is to assume that none of the old fans are going to show up to games simply because the ballpark is downtown. It’s also folly to presume there aren’t going to be any new fans created with a new park in a new location. Filling in this giant gap in Shockoe Bottom along with what I hope are some streetscape improvements in Old Shockoe Bottom will create a relatively contiguous entertainment district stretching from Broad Street where the National and soon to be opened Performing Arts Center are, down to Shockoe Slip, and then east into Shockoe Bottom where presumably the new ballpark, surrounding retail, restaurants, and condos and potentially a Slavery Museum will be located. All these areas are within walking distance of one another and help create a destination area for City residents, suburbanites, and tourists alike. Infill of this desolate area simply will not take place without a large scale project like this. If we drop the ball here, look for baseball and the revenue that goes with it to move to Henrico or Chesterfield.

   Jeff E. @ February 4th, 2009 at 11:08 am

9. Jeff E.,

   All or none?

   That’s not the point. Shockoe Bottom isn’t simply Downtown, it’s Shockoe Bottom, which is not exactly known as a family-friendly environment after dark.

   If the Triple A affiliated R-Braves averaged 4,000 to 5,000 attendance at The Diamond over the last ten years, let’s say half won’t go to Shockoe Bottom.

   To expect the fickle bar-hopping crowd to make up the difference is crazy.

   Please note, no results from an independent study that sought to find out what percentage of the R-Braves fans would go to night games in Shockoe Bottom has been published. Short of such data, my guess that 50 percent might go is probably generous.

   Thus, for the developers/boosters to claim the Richmond Whatevers will average 5,500 per game over a Single A or Double A season is nothing more than a blue sky number, made up out of thin air. And, I don’t believe anyone with much awareness of the business side of minor league baseball would buy such a projection, unless, of course, they think they stand to make a buck out of pretending to believe it.

   FTRea @ February 4th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

10. I’m not going to argue that these people aren’t trying to make money. This isn’t charity, it’s business. As far as the Bottom not being family-friendly after dark, wouldn’t you agree that it’s more perception as opposed to some rash of kidnappings that gives folks that impression? A development like this one along with City improvements to sidewalks and streets and potentially burying ugly utility lines would give people a new impression of it. Just because it’s not considered family-friendly now doesn’t mean it has to remain that way forever. One of the main reasons for supporting developments like this is to see improvement in the quality of life.

    Jeff E. @ February 4th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

11. How they put the ballpark there is a much bigger problem than if they will, and the real determination of its success.

    Mary
    longtime 17th st Farmers Market vendor

    Mary @ February 4th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

12. All this huffing and puffing about the old fuddy duddies who won’t go to the Bottom is ridiculous. They flock to downtown Durham now, and NO ONE flocked to downtown Durham 15 years ago before the new DBAP (Durham Bulls Athletic Park) was built. FT, I venture to guess that YOU haven’t really been down to the Bottom after dark lately, and don’t really know of what you speak, but are perpetuating stereotypes that no longer hold true. After all, the Fan District was also for a very long time a place you didn’t want to venture to after dark. A large scale family friendly development like this will transform the Bottom.

    The era of the burbs is over……inner cities coming to life once again thanks to the threat of $5 per gallon gas. The old folks will come, the little leaguers will come (are mommy and daddy really going to say no to little Joey because of their irrational fear of the Bottom?), and many 20 and 30 somethings in this town, who didn’t come to RBraves games because they simply weren’t any fun, and who have been dying for some new entertainment, will come as well.

    FanGuy @ February 4th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

13. Somehow my complete comment didn’t post last time…here it is again:

    I feel like I’ve had to repeat myself on about 5 different comment sections regarding minor league baseball and its fanbase. One more time!

    I am not so naive that I think this project will create brand new baseball fans and turn them into full-season ticket holders. I would guess that the average minor league baseball attendee goes to

    Anna @ February 4th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

14. Alright, I give up, here’s the important stuff.

    I basically agree with Omelette in that we do not need to create a whole new base of fans in the Richmond area. There are plenty of people who have major league partial seasons who I’m sure would be glad to trade them in for at least a partial in Richmond regardless of where the stadium is located.

    The thing is, those people turned their backs on the Diamond because that entertainment value just wasn’t there anymore. The stadium lost its luster, and the area surrounding it became unsafe for families. Who wants to drag 20 kids across 4 lanes of traffic, and past a Greyhound station?

    More examples of successful new stadiums: Durham, Greenville SC, Memphis, Toledo – all built downtown. I sincerely doubt they’re all businessmen and women and barhopping youth.

    I can’t emphasize enough how ridiculous it is to preach that the bottom isn’t family friendly when the Boulevard is no safe haven. Personally, the abandoned feeling at the Boulevard startles me more than the Bottom and would choose a restaurant in this area over Kitchen 64 any evening.

    Anna @ February 4th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

15. Oh, and also –

    Jeff E. and Omelette are far closer to being ‘on-base’ than you are, FTRea, about their predictions regarding the attendance at a stadium in the Bottom. Predicting that less than 50% of the 4000 average fans (if it was that many) that attended a game in the Diamond last year would attend a brand new stadium is beyond cynical.

    To claim it comes from them not knowing anything about baseball shows just how little YOU know about the business of baseball (by the way, this comes from someone who knows quite a bit about the business of baseball). I get its a blog, but at least try to retain some sort of objectivity…or at least reason.

    Sorry for all the posts, this site has it in for me.

    Anna @ February 4th, 2009 at 5:04 pm

16. FanGuy,

    I’m not sure who you are trying to convince, or who you’re just trying to irritate with your snarky approach.

    As for me, I’ve been promoting The City, and lamenting the tainted influence of suburban thinking on city planners and developers for a long time. People who know my work will tell you that’s true.

    For instance: The first issue of SLANT (1985), a ‘zine I used to publish, mocked the 6th Street marketplace, as it was about to open. I said it was a big mistake to put a “suburban mall” downtown.

    Now I hear some of the same arguments about how a another development will hold people who work downtown, and give them an attractive way to spend money after work, before they go home.

    So, when old goats compare something today to what has happened before, sometimes there’s actually a good reason for it.

    History usually matters more than wishful thinking.

    A widespread perception of Shockoe Bottom is that it’s a randy ward, chock full of noisy saloons and not particularly family friendly. I’d say the bar crowd has been glad it hasn’t been a district with a lot of children underfoot.

    Now, The Bottom is changing, you say. Maybe. Slowly.

    However, merely saying The Bottom is safe as milk, isn’t going to instantly erase what has been an established perception. It will take years and a lot of good publicity to change it.

    Maybe a development like this ballpark thing would help do the trick. But if the team can’t draw a crowd the development will be in trouble. Then the taxpayers will be in trouble, too.

    Much of my opposition to this venture boils down to just that — I don’t think this imaginary team, from who-knows-what-league? will draw big crowds to Shockoe Bottom.

    On top of that, I prefer the more natural growth that The Bottom has been experiencing; more and more home-owners moving close by. I agree with those who say a baseball stadium is too out of character with the architecture and historic sites there.

    As far as baseball goes, I have my doubts that we’ll see a pro team in Richmond any time soon. Richmond really blew it with the Braves.

    So, college baseball is what Richmond’s fans of America’s Pastime will probably have to settle for in the immediate future.

    FTRea @ February 4th, 2009 at 5:17 pm

17. Anna,

    You said, “I get its [sic] a blog, but at least try to retain some sort of objectivity…or at least reason. Sorry for all the posts, this site has it in for me.”

    Objectivity? Reason? So, if I disagree with you that’s not being objective or based in reason? Are you trying to be persuasive, or just pushy?

    My point about how some who are promoting this ballpark venture don’t know baseball is based on listening to a lot of people talking on this topic, including politicians, who obviously don’t know anything about the game.

    Accordingly, I’ve read lots of comments from folks who want to use baseball to move a crowd where they want it to be. But they don’t understand what aesthetics matter to that crowd.

    Since I don’t know anything about you, I’ll wait and see. I don’t know why you are taking the time to comment here. If you go back to my post, and read some of what I’ve written about this in the past (there are five links), maybe you’ll better understand where I’m coming from.

    In the meantime, relax, no one here has anything against you.

    FTRea @ February 4th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

18. What I mean by objectivity and reason is that instead of stating facts to back up your assumption that nobody from the Diamond will frequent the Bottom, you claim that those who make opposing statements know not what they’re talking about.

    For example:

    “I don’t think this imaginary team, from who-knows-what-league? will draw big crowds to Shockoe Bottom.”

    Where do you get this from? Teams from all levels have the opportunity to draw well given the proper environment. The Durham Bulls drew 7200 on average last year (AAA), the Trenton Thunder drew 5800 on average (AA), the Reading Phils drew an average of 6200 (AA), Norfolk drew 6200 (AAA), the Greenville Drive drew 5000 (A-), the Greensboro Grasshoppers drew 6200 (A-), the Toledo Mud Hens drew nearly 8400 (AAA).

    These stadiums are all of relatively new design in comparison to Richmond. Also, with the exception of Reading and maaaaybe Greensboro, they are all located in urban areas. I don’t think we should turn our noses up at any stadium, the actual game hardly matters to most attendees of minor league games.

    I am taking the time to comment here because as someone who was once a sports management major and did an internship with a baseball team (a few years ago), I feel like a lot of people don’t understand how the business of baseball really works. So while you are using your blog to dispense what I feel are unfounded and overly negative facts, I will use your comment section to add my two cents based on experience.

    Anna @ February 4th, 2009 at 6:21 pm

19. Anna,

    When you say the “actual game hardly matters” you sound like someone who is working for/with the people behind the development.

    Based on real experience, with no dog in the fight, people wouldn’t all say it the same way. That is, unless they’ve been coached.

    Come on, Anna, you know it’s silly to say MOST baseball fans don’t care about the game, itself.

    But I’ve heard some of the Shockoe Bottom baseball stadium deal’s hired-hands use that SAME key phrase.

    Me, I’m just a guy who’s been going to baseball games a long time. Been writing about sports and politics for a while, too. My only interest in this thing is in trying to help steer my home town toward genuine progress.

    Nobody is paying me to fight against the Shockoe Bottom baseball stadium.

    Do you mind revealing what interest, if any, you have in this development?

    FTRea @ February 4th, 2009 at 7:01 pm

20. I will say this only once – I am not working for/with the people on this project. I have never spoken with them either. I’ve never even been to an ‘interest meeting’ – I don’t need to, i understand what’s at stake.

    As a big city native, I have been living in the Richmond area for most of my life and personally love Shockoe Slip and Bottom, as well as other urban areas of the city. I wish I had more reasons to visit the area, I especially wish that reason would be baseball (its my favorite sport).

    Will I not attend a game in any other location? No, that’d be ridiculous. I personally love the game and would follow it almost anywhere – but I think the Bottom is as perfect a spot as we will see in the metro-Richmond area for a stadium.

    I’m not saying baseball fans don’t care, I’m not even saying “nobody cares” (not literally, anyways, I need to stop speaking in superlatives)…I’m saying many people who go to minor league games rarely pay attention to the game being played, and especially who is playing them. I’m also saying that a lot of the people who go to minor league games are going for the social activity rather than the game itself. Minor league teams these days focus more on promoting the team and gameday experience as a brand than the players themselves.

    I cannot tell you how many attendees get hit or nearly hit with baseballs because they aren’t paying attention. Sure, they’ll check in with the score every once in a while, or pick a game to come to solely based on the affiliate, but I’d say about 1% of the average attendance keeps score or even watches for an entire game. No, that’s not a fact, that’s my observation from my experience in the business a few years back.

    I never accused you of having a vested interest in opposing the stadium, please extend me the same courtesy.

    Anna @ February 4th, 2009 at 7:19 pm

21. Anna,

    Hey, after the tone our conversation started with, a tone you set with your comments, it takes some nerve to lecture me on courtesy.

    Who I am is no mystery. Since I don’t know you, I asked you a question. It was that simple, but I still don’t know who you are.

    Anna, if that’s really your name, are you really so unfamiliar with the practice of planted bloggers and commenters, who act anonymously, in order to promote their causes and candidates as if they are neutral?

    Why the righteous indignation?

    FTRea @ February 4th, 2009 at 8:09 pm

22. Whatever tone it is you are accusing me of setting you established when you responded to your opposition with the following:

    “Your comments tell me you know very little about baseball, as a game or a business. And, when you come here to trot out your talking points, hey, you are throwing slogans at the wrong old baseball fan.”

    I know that wasn’t directed at me, but the person to which you were responding had made some fairly accurate statements about baseball and you dismissed them rather rudely, in my opinion.

    I don’t know who you are, this current debate has brought me to your blog. As far as I know you could be a businessman on the short end of the ballpark stick like the man paying for “baseballontheboulevard.com”. You don’t ask any questions about his conflict of interest in opposing the ballpark.

    Finally, I’d accept your question as “that simple” as long as it doesn’t come at the end of a post where half of it implies that I am some kind of mercenary going around spouting out the developers agenda.

    As for you not knowing me? I’m sorry my explanation wasn’t sufficient. I’m not all that different from you, I’m passionate about my city, but I resent being lumped into the conspiracy you seem to associate with this project.

    Anna @ February 4th, 2009 at 11:30 pm

23. Anna,

    Well, now we’ll have to leave it to the our readers to decide who is what. As it is, my background is no mystery in this city.

    FTRea @ February 4th, 2009 at 11:54 pm

24. For someone so dedicated to promoting the city, you’ve spent a good deal of time talking about who I am. I’ve answered all your questions, and played your game, but I really don’t care what your background is or how many people in this city know it.

    I’m here to talk about baseball. From reading your responses to your readers, you don’t know as much about the business of baseball as you project. You spend over half of your responses to your opposition attacking their character or talking about how much you know about the city.

    Seriously, respond to *any* of the arguments I’ve made about baseball. This isn’t about me, and it isn’t about you, its about baseball and economic development. Let’s stick to the subject matter, please.

    Anna @ February 5th, 2009 at 12:10 am

25. FT, NO ONE is paying me to support the project either. I’m a Fan resident, a city taxpayer, and a concerned citizen. But you vastly underestimate the # of people who go to a game and really don’t care that much about the outcome. You don’t have to be on the development team to recognize this fact. Yes, they want the home team to ultimately to win, but when I go to games, usually w/ a big group of friends, we are there to have some beer, peanuts, and socializing, and we often look up and say “how did we score that run again?” For MANY, that is what minor league baseball is all about…..a fun way to spend an evening outdoors. This isn’t the big leagues, and fan loyalities often extend only so far as they remain entertained. The RBraves weren’t entertaining, because the venue and total product that the RBraves put on was not good.

    And sorry if you find my approach “snarky,” but your constant know-it-all attitude about what types of people will come to games in the Bottom is rather absurd. It is pretty clear, and not surprising, that you really don’t know much about what 20 and 30 somethings in this City really want.

    FanGuy @ February 8th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

26. I think Fan Guy and Anna make good points. I personally know very little about the game, but I know I loved going to see the Braves! I will really miss them this summer and what the city to do what it can to entice another team here. And, that looks like a River Stadium.

    edg @ February 10th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

27. edg,

    You might have to get used to missing pro baseball in Richmond. There’s no telling how long it’s going to take to get another team here. Right now, it’s a mess.

    And, if a new baseball stadium could actually be built in a place where the fans could see the James River that would be something else to consider.

    However, from what I know about it, the proposed Shockoe Bottom stadium will not offer such a view.

    FTRea @ February 11th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

28. Well where do I begin? (relax most everyone knows my views so no need to repeat.) If you miss baseball and don’t mind a drive they do have a single A team in Hampton they were not bad and their stadium makes the Diamond look like a Jem. Funny thing is they love to play ball where they are at but it will cover your Ball playing fix. The Tidewater Tides have a good staduim and the have a great team so if you get down to Norfolk give them a try.

    Nothing beats a cold hotdog and a warm brew while watching America’s pastime. ( I know they are reversed but that ends up being how it is when at the park)

    ShockoeBottomDweller @ February 12th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

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